The Dis empowerment of Women in the Arts July 18th, 2024 Hosted by Nasty Gallery, at Arbeit Studios, 1 Trowbridge Road, Trowbridge Gardens, E9 5LD Speakers: Paige Megan Hawley, Aida Wilde, and CW Stubbs C.W. Stubbs: So welcome to the Disempowerment of Women in the Arts talk. This is the Nasty Gallery Uprising Exhibition 2024. My name is C.W. Stubbs. What I like is the idea of having communal third spaces where people can just meet and talk about certain things because there's not a lot of opportunity for people just to meet in person and have a chat about stuff. So welcome. Thank you. Oh yeah, some housekeeping. If the discussion gets very heated, we allow others the space and time to speak without interruption. No speaking over others. We respect the rights of all individuals. Zero tolerance for hate speech. No ad hominem attacks. We give each other mutual consideration. And for the purposes of this, we're not recording, but we are going to do one for archival, transcript purposes. And this is Paige Megan-Hawley, who is co-director, co-curator of Nasty Gallery, founder of Nasty Women London. Over to you. Yay! Paige: So my work started when, basically I did art at college and then I graduated from that. I did photography for a while. My work kind of stemmed from when I was raped, so I kind of used that impact to turn negatives into positives through photographic film and documented myself. And then from that, when I graduated from Uni, I started looking into finding spaces where I could show my work. I came across Nasty Women, which was a global movement, looked it up online, found out loads about it. It rose from when Donald Trump came to be president of America. It was established in New York by Roxanne Jackson in 2004. And then basically, they started this worldwide movement and saw that they hadn't started an exhibition in London, so then I decided to find a space to do one myself. I worked with Creative Debuts and we had really big shows, worked a lot with really big artists. Yeah, I just really wanted to give a space for women to have a voice alongside my own work. Yeah, and then recently started a new project called ‘At Arms Length’, which is basically documenting women and just their own stories and things that they've been through, similar to me. And again, turning a negative impact into a positive and trying to, like, just encourage them that, you know, everything's okay, talk about it and just be open. And just maybe just shout it from the rooftops without having to hide away from what they've been through. And then kind of established into Nasty Gallery as well, which is obviously now giving a space for women to be able to sell their artwork rather than Nasty Women was more about raising awareness and money for charities. We raised money for rape crisis, women for women, but now it's more focusing on the artist and wanting to help them make money from their art. So, yeah. Well, the idea is like, when you kind of go through the last, let's say, 30 years of feminism, it was a unifying force when people did get together. C.W. Stubbs: I mean, there was the pink hat things, growing up with the shadow of, let's say, second wave feminism, and then the whole kind of girl power thing, which was kind of the capitalization of an idea that never came to fruition and you can have it all, you can work 40 hours a week, you can do this, you can do that, and then it, and I think the, I know the Ladette culture, so a lot of it was just like, it was a wash. It didn't really have a lot of substance or a lot of meaning. Rights were still being removed. Women weren't in, there was a lot of lip service, I guess. So when the Nasty Women movement happened, what I saw is, there was so much intersectionality within feminism. It's like the saying, there's a hundred ways to be a feminist, and they're all wrong, right? And that was a flash. That's how I see it. And then the discussion changed and there was Me Too, and now we have to debate, which I won't get into, what a woman is, and so this idea of Nasty Gallery, it was like, well, we've done things for UK women, it's like, what's the thing that does unify women? If we take the Judith Butler definition out of it, which is women are just not men. That's it. If we remove that, what do we need for women? Do women need a voice? How can they express without getting, I guess, lost in the weeds? And I think, for me, in the experience with the show, because I came in with the show in 2017, what I found with a lot of people is meeting women that are like, I need that. Where they were at a break, were they going to give up? Were things too much? Whatever it was, needed to feel, just for a minute, a sense of community to keep going. And that, for me, was like, okay, yeah, that's what this is. This idea of, you know, I don't know, I think of just authenticity was the aim that we're trying to achieve, and that's why I'm having work from women globally, and work that isn't just showing women's body parts, or people going, I made friends with a sex worker, and now I'm going to take pictures of them, and this is feminist art, without really kind of considering all of the things that make that photo a reality, and how you may be capitalizing on it, but it's not feminism. Attendee: Yeah. I know this is not the format, but I've got several questions, actually. Just about, as we're on the brink of maybe the Orange One coming back into power, maybe, I mean, if Nasty Gallery started then, what do you think is going to happen with the movement? I mean, it was huge back then. Can you imagine what the women are going to be like this time around, if it does? Do you think you're going to do something, if something happens in America? Paige: I spoke to Roxanne Jackson after it, and she's just been saying things like that, because she's so busy with her own artwork, she hasn't got time to do more Nasty Human exhibitions, so possibly if something else was to erupt with Trump, then I could see something possibly happening, but all I can do is liaise with her and see what she says. Yeah, like, what's getting close? You never know. It could be a possibility. Well, is it November? That's really close. CW: It's very close. But I always think of, this is random and off-shoot, but it's like, if only you knew how exhausted it is to be powered by rage, it's like, how much do people have in the tank? Do you know what I mean? A: Well, you can see already not much. And so it's like, it's a great idea, but how do we do something that matters, something that's significant, something that... (Reference to old Cheeto) Because he's such... Nothing to do with it. He's got a following in central London. CW: They play him on screens. The St. George flags are right behind him. Premiering Unless it's women that kind of rise up collectively, I don't know. We've always got shots, so we can't be that loud. Isn't it funny how the world is so more concerned about something? Aida Wilde: A man who's got so much power, thousands of miles away, but it's clearly going to be something that affects all of us because we're all women and I take this stance, I am you, you are me, and, you know, so whatever they're going to go through, they're going to go through. That's the stance I take. But I think last time, if I'm being honest and personally, I mean, I've got a piece about it in my book about the pink hats. I really just, because, you know, after that we never even saw the pink hats. You know, where the fuck are the pink hats? I thought that was a bit, you know when you said about girl power, sort of that kind of candy, that kind of took everything away. Because people were just seeing this a bit like when people go to protests, where they have like protest party placards making the night before as a thing, as a do, and they don't actually understand the system or the thing or what it's about or the politics or what, you know, our foreign policy is going to be and the actual impact. I think that comes back to what you were saying about women making art without fully understanding what feminist art is. So maybe, what is it to you? Paige: Then we can ask everyone else what they think what feminist art is. What do you think? For me, it's just every piece of artwork has a meaning behind it and it's just living that voice. Attendee: Does it matter if a man makes it? No, but it depends. I mean, a heterosexual man. Depends what the concept is. See, I don't know. I don't know if that one sits with me. Aida: Because it's, we live in a time where people so easily capitalize off others' ideologies for profit and the people that that actually impacts they don't benefit from. So, I don't know about that. So, because that's what you see. CW: And that's the danger with capitalism. The patriarchy is like, where's the line? Where's the line? C.W. Stubbs: Because for me, I think the idea behind feminist art is actually getting women's art visible and that it does need to challenge a gender norm and that it does need to be critical. Because the word feminism is political within itself, right? It's not live, laugh, love, bath bombs. It's being aware that, I think, ignoring things will not make them better or go away. And it's definitely very unpopular. So, maybe, I'm going to put that one there. So, by all means, just read it. I think strong feminist art people have a visceral reaction to, or they love, but I still think it's an ideology that doesn't get a lot of time. Because it almost seems redundant when it's not. Aida Wilde: And so many women are globally impacted by violence and globally impacted by economic status generally, and it's so fragile. The problem is this. Whoever thought in their lifetime that the right to have an abortion was made illegal, right? An abortion made mostly by men. Because I think what I'm trying to say is I think we can't talk about feminist art alone without the consideration of how it exists. And in terms of, for me, I always compare it to what men make. I mean, that's my benchmark, right? When I'm looking at feminist art and, you know, it's funny. I remember I was an art student and I came across, you know, Gustave Courbet's Origins of the World. It's like 1866 or something. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. It was one of the first. Do you guys know it? I don't know if you know it. It's literally a woman's vagina, very real, raw. And, you know, it's like. But she's laying in her pose and there's the draped curtains and it's like a renaissance scene. Well, no, it's just very close up there. Her legs are open. Go and have a look. And I think that was the bench. I think that just, because it was one of its kind at the time, it kind of set the benchmark. It was a man apparently painting it to empower us, right? So, you know, you were talking about, like, people still painting vaginas and stuff, women painting vaginas. And I just think, well, you know what? A guy has actually already set the most world-famous painting in the world. What chance have we got to even come close to that notoriety? Yeah, yeah. Do you know what I mean? Yeah, yeah. Or if I'm, like, walking down Shoreditch and I see all these men who've painted. You know, they're all middle-aged, they're white, they're painting, they're fetishising for a start because they're painting a lot of black figures, a lot of brown girls, oriental. It's like this, it's a huge thing. It's in the street every day. And they're making tonnes of money out of it. Because I know these artists, so I know how much money the galleries are making them. So when I'm comparing that to someone... You know, we've got a painting here of a face, a woman's face, painted by a woman. Yeah. There is no way that's gotten as much attraction, as much commerce, make... Do you know what I mean? The street value of it, because it's made by a woman, it's often suddenly devalued. Maybe, no? Maybe. But this is where I'm coming from when I think about what are we actually doing? Because it just seems like it's all been taken away from us. The power has actually been taken away from us. And what we see represented by men who are claiming to be empowering us. Because this, you know, I've had so many dialogues with why are you painting women's faces, why are you painting women's bodies, why are you painting... It's my friend! It was my friend! You know? Yeah. Going back to what you said exactly at the beginning, like not even understanding... Why? Yeah, yeah. So, you know, I think the only way we're going to understand feminist art right now is to examine what the men are actually doing. Mm. And how they're profiting. I think that's always the key. It's how are they profiting? Do you know what I mean? In those kind of necessary steps. CW: And I know that there's women artists that I've had arguments with, but they're like, they won't be in women's shows.. Yeah, I've kind of seen that. I've seen that too. No, but I get it. Because it's like, yeah, I want to be known as an artist. Like, I don't want to have that whole... But then I also then look around at spaces and I see so many artists that then get zero representation. They're not even given a foot in the door. And it's not because of lack of talent. So how do you approach that gap? You know what I mean? I think it comes down to me personally. I was recently... Did anyone see... the Tate show? Women in Revolt I went to a talk. It was actually about... It was part of the show. And one of my works was being talked about in the panel talk. In there. This residency I'd done. I really love collaborating with women. Especially... I think collaborating is the key for a start. Getting yourself out there. There's something so beautiful about coming together and making work. It was like-minded people. I've worked with a lot of unlike-minded people. That I don't talk to anymore. It was funny. Women. Rape. Child care. Child birth. You name it. They were amazing. But what I found in the audience, there were so many... Community working with women, and what happens, and how to move forward talking to young girls. Yeah, so... You said it was with persistent passion in the media as well. But that's the thing, knowing how these collectives work, and the power they've had, the longevity they've had, you know, the posters being reproduced, like, I think C Red have had a massive surgence in the last five years, I think they've got something massive on in France right now. So when I went, so I thought, I took all these kind of do's and don'ts, I'd learned so much with, you know, interviewing these people, talking to these people, and I thought, you know what, let's bloody test it out. Let's test out to see if women can actually work together, right? How do you keep mechanics going? How do you keep them going? Because I think some people really missed the point about what we were actually trying to do, so I think maybe what's lacking now is people maybe just making sort of feminist art all for themselves, not even realising that maybe as women we owe it to each other to say something more about our own bodies. If you know what I mean? I just, I don't know, maybe I'm a bit cynical, but I just don't think the spirit is there, or the commitment. I mean, we were saying earlier, wasn't it, you're never fully, fully invested in something unless you've been impacted by something, really, whether it is... But I think what I was kind of thinking about all of this in looking at, let's say, where gaps are, what doesn't work, and it's also been thinking about the mental load and looking at the lives of women who often have so much on already. We all work full-time already, we all, you know, you get these pockets to make art, pockets to do this, and it's like, it's a lot. It's a lot to do, often, and to avoid where there's no support, catch, funding, this, that. So the collective thing, I think it's a great idea, but everybody's got to be 100% invested. But like you've experienced, is it the best way for people to get their work seen, or is it just a few people doing all the work and then everyone else kind of reaping the benefits? You know what I mean? Like, we need to be honest, because this is, we need to try, we need to start these dialogues and find out why, you know, I'm not being bad, why this room isn't full. We need to find out why no one wants to have this conversation, which is so important. I think people are interested. C.W. Stubbs: I think people are interested in having this conversation, to be honest. I don't, I don't, like, it's amazing when I talk to people from multiple generations, this is one woman I know who still thinks that the minimum wage, the equal pay gap's been filled. Wow. Aida Wilde: And I'm like, you what? You know what I mean? Isn't it like October and November when we stopped getting paid? Yeah. Compared to men. I think it's November, isn't it? It's coming up. Yeah. Where that's our pay gap. We, that's the disparity, you know. So that's got me stumped. Oh, yes, James, would you like to say something? JAH attendee: There's so much interesting things about, outside of a collective which is clearly identified as being women-based, how do you, well, I'm trying to formulate this question, just go, it's like, outside of being, identifying or presenting yourself and your work as an artist or as a female artist, how do you negotiate that outside of that? Like, because I know it can be quite polarising that it's in, equality should be that point when it doesn't matter, but we're not there, so how do you approach that? And I think I'm more interested in how do you have discussions about how to approach that? JAH attendee: How you present it to the world, or how do you, are you talking about how you package yourself, how you present yourself? No, you know, there's a, you know, to identify your gender as part of what it is that you're doing, there are obviously lots of situations where that is, and like I said, with an art collective where that is clearly identified within it, that's important, you know, it does what it says on the tin, right? But then how do you negotiate outside of that? How do you discuss, like, amongst yourself, amongst people within a collective, when you're doing things outside of a collective? So individually, like, when you guys work together, and then without each other, what is the main difference with working individually, as opposed to when you all come together? So individually like when you guys work together and then without each other what what is the the main difference with working individually as opposed to when you all come together? Well I think CW made a point earlier about outside of here about like you know international women's day it's just one one day a year and there's always like exhibitions and out and that. Aida: Well, CW made a point earlier about, outside of here, about, you know, International Women’s Day, it's just one day a year, and there's always a lot of exhibitions around that. Aida: I'll tell you this, 99% of the time I've been treated different, or I know I've been paid less, I'll tell you that now. I've had, you know, assistance taken away from me, from stuff to be given to men, right in my face. Or my materials haven't showed up, but theirs has. That's what we're talking about. Those are the kind of barriers that I've personally experienced. I think we're all the same. Aida: I think you get scummy men, you get scummy women. Sorry to be blunt, I don't know what you think. That's just such a big question. We might do a YouTube channel for that one, you know? Because that's a very diverse question, male energy, female energy. In the art world? C.W. Stubbs: In the art world? Yeah. Most of the men I know in the art world used to be kind of coal-headed art dealers that can flip a Warhol like that. And it's like the language of venture capital, right? And that's where, so this energy that we speak of, but then I know amazing artists that do wonderful work that are part of NHS mental health groups that are men, and it's great artists. So I think as diverse as there are people, you know, I don't think I'm going to go with the spectrum of morality or class and all of those things. They deeply impact. So I'm not saying anywhere that men get off the hook if they're from X, Y, and Z. But you have to look at the realities of what it means to be a woman. L (attendee): What? Food? I don't know about what everyone thinks, but I just think like, is anyone on threads at all? Aida: You know, that kind of new platform. So I've just, you know, I've just been reading a lot of, it's turned into this weird playground for women and men. I don't know, maybe it's my algo, but it's like, everyone's just pulling each other's hair. Like, does he like me if he doesn't text me in an hour? What algorithm have you been using? Listen, I am relentlessly reading this battle between these men don't know where they stand, women don't know where they stand. Sometimes you get some queer or trans and they're very, very slightly outspoken. But I just feel like, what was I saying the other day? We've almost shifted this balance where we've gone so hard in to the point that the seesaw's gone that way. All these men just don't know what to do anymore. They don't know what to say. They don't know, you know, you see it, you can see it in the younger, I don't know if anyone deals with younger men. C.W. Stubbs: Their language has been so, well my son's 16 and he spoke in the most HR language of any 16 year old. Really? It's because we've been through the Andrew Tate, the this, the that already. Aida: Like from my POV with my algorithm. So it's like, what I see is when people are isolated from groups, that's when the edges get done. But this middle of people not knowing what to say, that's why we have a no phones discussion. Because I think often people, they just don't know anymore. They don't, there's ability to communicate effectively and that also doesn't often work on social media. You've got two sons, right? Paige: Yeah. Are you seeing any, is anything, have you noticed anything about their relationship with maybe with women or girls or, you know, is there anything? I'd say they're quite affectionate, especially to my oldest, especially very good with like, he's more friendly with girls than he is boys. Like even at the school gates, because obviously he was in reception still, some of them were struggling to go into school. Like some of the girls would be crying outside with their friends and they would hold their hands and say, come on, let's go in. He's got like such a big heart. And then Ray is a bit feisty, he's the complete opposite. He's going through the, what I call the free later stage, where he like hits himself sometimes. And I have to kind of remind him, he's always in the day, what it would be like. But he does come out a bit after I've spoken to him, but he's very, I think it's more of an attention thing more than anything. If I don't give it to him consistently, then I'll be like, he wants it. They're the complete opposite. C.W. Stubbs: So do we think it's just all inherent in our characters? I think you just are the way you are. I mean, you'll probably grow out of it as he gets older. Paige: He might be completely different when he's older. I mean, people change, don't they? They take it all on. Learn different things, do different things, explore different things. But I know, so what you're saying is there's a larger group of teenagers with like the 15, 16 year olds that are all non-binary like that. And I'm like, yeah. Who would want to be a woman when you're hitting 20 in this day and age? Because you're suddenly facing body and like sexism. Whereas like the boys I saw trying to gain internet, that kind of bond is like emotionally not going out. So I do think the, like what you're saying with the album, I think there's been bits missed with the pandemic and that shutdown. You know, and that normal socialization. I think there has been an impact on that that we haven't yet seen. Do you know what I mean? Paige: I mean, my brother's 12 and he doesn't really go out much. Like a lot of his friends go out and do things. He likes to stay at home. Currently it’s play station. He doesn't really leave the house. His friends will come over and see him and play football in the garden or things like that. But he's not very sociable unless he's family or really close friends. He doesn't really play in the streets or anything like that. And I do think lockdown did have an impact on him. He just didn't want to. He really cringed. Yeah, he does get really bad anxiety coming out. And at his age I always say to him, I used to go out with my friends and we'd jump on the train and go somewhere. But it's different that age. You know, it's so different. I used to go out when I was 12, get the train to my dad's for the weekend. But I've always been a lot more independent of him. So maybe he'll change as he gets older. He's only 12. There's a lot more neglect going on in parenting back then. You know what I mean? What do you think? Come home in the street lights. C.W. Stubbs: Yeah. Child labour laws were different. I think that made an impact. Paige: Right? I don't know. I think I've said to Kenzie and I would probably still send the kids to the workouts. He's like, why aren't you working? You're 12. Get up early. Work. Work. Work. I don't know. I personally think, I don't know what anyone else thinks, I think there's a really big imbalance with everything right now. Yeah. C.W. Stubbs: Everything. Well, it's happened, doesn't it? But I think we've also lost language. We've lost our symbols and identifiers. Only to some very surface degree, which makes it much more difficult for people to communicate. Because you've got to do so much padding before you get to a point. And if you can get that far with people without someone, I think just communicating has become harder, I think. Yeah, because everyone's working online nowadays. Even online, I think. Aida: But I think there's no better time than now, being in touch with everybody. Whether it's socials, emails, phone, WhatsApp. But then people, as you're saying, they're not communicating. We're nasty gallery. Thank you for including me in this show. Honestly, I really... What's the next thing that you know about people tonight? November. Uprising! To the US! Yeah. Honestly Paige and CW, thank you so much for including me. I mean, I'd said... I don't know if you might have left the book launch. I'd said that I won't be showing in Hackney Wick ever again. I mean, that was my talk, my speech at the book launch. And then you guys came in! And we drew you back to Hackney Wick. And I was like, fuck! I don't want to show in Hackney Wick again. But thank you for including me in it. I was not where I was next class. But please, yeah, I'm not... Well, I hope that you ask. But I think with Aida's work, if you don't know about the Mind the Gap piece, Mind theGap is bound from an international women's show with Adidas. Yes, with Adidas, because it shows David's penis on it. Four days before the show I had to put all my work out. There was a massive show with 100 women in their flagship store on Oxford Street. Guess what they were paying us with? A pair of trainers. Oh really? With shoes? Audience: Like David's? Yeah. A: It was just after our talk when you met me. And I was just still like... It was a week after or something. I was just like... Seething. Because it went... Although you handed your work in like months before. So they all knew five days before the show. It's like, oh, it's against our nudity policy. A picture of an apron of a famous statue in the world. And I was... They were like, well, keep your other pieces. I was like, no, it's all right. Thanks. Bye-bye. So this is the first time it's been shown publicly? It's the first time, actually. Because you get kind of... It hurts. I didn't see it. It hurts. Yeah. Nudity. Did they know the book? Did they give you a chance to just... Yeah, one of the curators who was dealing with it, she was back and forth for about two days over the weekend and by the Monday. You know what's funny about that? That same month before it, they'd launched their campaign where they'd photographed women's breasts. You know that campaign, right? It was in New York, it was here, and they'd literally just put breasts, breasts, breasts on billboards in the street. It got taken down not long after, globally, because of advertising standard agencies. But that's what they'd literally done about three weeks before they rejected that piece in their show, that was literally showing women's breasts in the street. And one of the most famous penises in the world. Yeah. Everyone's seen it. It's a double standard, you know? And that's what we want to figure our way around. Essentially. I don't think we ever can, if I'm honest, right now. No. Not unless we have really strong allies and people supporting us and funding us, and I always say this, don't I? It's all about funding. Yeah. So, yeah. That's where the intention is. So this is why we're doing the show, and we're going to do another one, so that people can have a bit of a collective voice and have work from all over the world, all different women, and try to get some eyeballs and rings coming up. That's it, really. I think just try to have some authenticity. CW: Yeah. Thank you for coming. Paige: Thank you. And if anyone... If anyone wants to take a comfort break, maybe, if anyone needs to move or take a break... What time do we have at 2pm? Oh, shoot, I'm... I don't know. I didn't get to that time, but I really appreciate it. Thank you. So we are taking... Please do not put any pressure on anyone. But there are prints, and if you want to have a quick look at the work, there's prints available, we have a donation button, so if anyone wants to donate, because as we are self-funded, and volunteers, every little bit helps to help us break even and continue to support the work of women. I appreciate you just putting that in there. CW: Do you want to open that up? Yeah.
